#66 | Q&A Dr. Sharon Saline Answers Questions About How to Help Our Autistic Young Adults Get Things Done

adhd adulting anxious autism brain efforting emerging adults executive functioning skills feelings learn metacognition parents people process question screens skill thinking young adults May 13, 2022
 

 

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Lynn Davison 0:00

I'm gonna do that. I always add headings and titles and like there's an outline on the PDF of the transcript so that you can easily get to the parts of the presentation that mean the most to you. So I'm excited about that. And I will be sending you a link to that as well.

This week on Wednesday, I did a recap of Dr. Salines 12 ideas on app the art of adulting and it was my take on what I've learned from her and how that dovetails with what we do at the art of adulting course. Course coaching and communities. So here comes Dr. Selena thrilled that we get to work together today. So, if you when I send you that transcript, it's going to be in there Hi, Dr. Celine. Oops, I can't hear you. Darn it. What's going on? Now I can I'm so thrilled you're here. We have Vanessa's already with us.

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:14
Thank you. Nice. I'm so glad to be here and thank you for all of your just incredibly warm and lovely comments and posts. I'm just so touched and I'm proud to be here.

Lynn Davison 1:28
Well, I cannot tell you how much I admire you. You are my shining beacon out there of where I want to go over time because of how well you well you're so prolific, you know writing blog posts and producing videos and all of that though, is so helpful because what you do is you find the right words to help explain these concepts. And you give me a selection of them sometimes which is helpful because you know, sometimes it's the way in and other times it's not the way and you got to come up with another option. So it's just lovely to be able to make it to learn so much from you and then translate that into how I help the people that I coach.

Dr. Sharon Saline 2:14
Well, thank you. I mean, it's wonderful and you know, I work a lot with emerging adults. So, you know, it's great to collaborate with you. In fact, I did a webinar on Wednesday called beyond high school, which I saw that you promoted thank you

Lynn Davison 2:37
and I bought I bought it

Dr. Sharon Saline 2:40
Yeah. And the people who attended asked me if I would please do that workshop for their kids. So yeah, that's something that we could.

Lynn Davison 2:51
Oh, what fun that would be. Yeah,

Dr. Sharon Saline 2:55
I think I'm going to do that and then you know, not let you know when I am because it seems like that would be up the FBI out. right up the alley of the people you work with.

Lynn Davison 3:10
Oh, definitely. And I had to figure this out because we have six kids and three. Well, several are autistic, and all of them are alternative learners. And thank you for that terminology alternative learner, because it really does encapsulate just the fact that we have some brain differences going on there normal variations on the brain. I mean, there's 7.9 billion people in the world did we not think that there was going to be some variation here? Yeah.

Dr. Sharon Saline 3:40
Exactly. You know, I don't like the term I mean, kids and kids themselves adults even no one wants to have a disorder. No, and so, you know, develop whatever it is, you know, yeah. Yeah. Nobody really wants to use that name or that verbiage. And so I think no alternative learner is actually it's just kinda like, yeah, I learn in different ways.

Lynn Davison 4:07
Yeah. And I think that all of us you know, there's, I know that I learned better a certain way. Some of the people I work with the another way, and I don't know what you know, I know that the labels are just part of being human because it helps us to, you know, make sense of the world. I get that and of course, the insurance companies need that in their diagnosis. And so I get that and yet I do find that when we paint people with those broad brushes that we really miss the beauty of the variances that we have as humans.

Dr. Sharon Saline 4:48
I think that's so true. And, you know, what I noticed is that nobody wants any diagnosis for them for the medical model, that's all and we want to be able to, you know, get whatever services are linked to that diagnosis, but I think it's important for people to be able to name their own brain. Does your brain work, you know, like I have.

Dr. Sharon Saline 5:15
I have a worried brain, or I have I have a worry, I have Sharon, worried

Dr. Sharon Saline 5:22
anxious. And so I want to know, you know, rather than pretend that or wish that I were one of those people who are just really right. Whatever happens, great. I'm just not that way. Like I'm just not that way. And so we want to move toward, you know, an ability to have compassion toward ourselves. And the first

Lynn Davison 5:47
step we are right there, first step.

Dr. Sharon Saline 5:51
That's right and if we are very busy you know, speaking, living, acting out of the disorder, then we're not actually offering ourselves the opportunity to act out the happy, joyful, creative parts of ourselves because that voice then becomes louder than the other times

Lynn Davison 6:19
because our brain tends toward the negative and that's why it amplifies it.

Dr. Sharon Saline 6:23
And that's exactly right. And Amin I think that it that doesn't mean we're going to ignore it. No, it's not happening. We're going to do instead is to say yes, and

Lynn Davison 6:35
yes. And not Yes, but I'm gonna get there. Yes.

Dr. Sharon Saline 6:41
Yes, I'm an anxious person. Yes. And that leads me to being very productive because I guess or or Yes, I struggle with time management. Because I think I can do more in a given amount of time than I'm actually able to do. So that means that appetite and I like to do a lot to get a lot done, and I might commit so so you want to be able to really work from that. Yes. Yes, I Miss Anna.

Lynn Davison 7:19
I love that the yes and formula. Yes. Yes. Because all of my you know, six all of our six adult children. We love all the way down to their toenails. And once we figured out where they are, then we can meet them there.

Dr. Sharon Saline 7:40
We want to meet our kids where they are. And then I think one of the 12 things that may not be but we want to meet our kids where they are rather than where they think they should be. You know, and I think that this is really a challenge for all of us. Whether we are parenting neurotypical or neurodivergent kids. We want to be able to, we have to be able to put aside the things that we think should be this way or the advice that we have and let kids figure it out. And I'm going to tell you I have I have two adult kids one is 23 and has really struggled, you know, within college during the pandemic. You know, got depressed, and one of them is 27 and just had a baby. So that was their choice he wanted to have a baby with his wife how to, you know, a wedding that was very, very small, and then the wife and the chaplain and the dog. We took them out for dinner. So there was a whole adaption adaptation for me. As Jewish mother. I'm like, well, we're not having a wedding. Are you kidding? So, but no way. You know, no after party, you know, that's their choice. And that took reeving and I think that's what I want to say. Right? Right tactic. It's it's a it's a it's about we have this expectation or there's hope. And then it may not occur, and that's on us.

Lynn Davison 9:22
Yes. That's our imagined future that we have to mourn and I learned that when my first when our when our daughter, one of our daughters passed and what was she right before her second birthday in 1988. And this is so this has been a while ago, but I the pain, that of letting go of the imagined future I had with her. You know, I had pictured us going to kindergarten and then you know all the things and I had to let go of all of that. And I'm so grateful, you know, to her for many, many reasons that I try to honor her memory by learning the lessons and then applying them forward in my life. So that's the way that I frame up letting go of the future. And that

Dr. Sharon Saline 10:13
and that's and that's such a huge deal. And then and it's a huge loss, you know, yes, you know, and I only want to say you know if you were here I'd give you a I can't imagine that kind of pain and grief. You know, I said I'm Jewish and in Judaism when someone dies, we say May their memory be a blessing. And

Lynn Davison 10:40
while my grandmother was Jewish, so you know, they adopted our family as because my lives so far away. So you know, Esther was and Nene were

Dr. Sharon Saline 10:51
our grandparents. And cleaning your daughter is a blessing. Oh, yeah. And her memory of the blessing.

Lynn Davison 11:00
And that's how I tried to honor her is is in that way. I really you know by learning the lessons and applying them as I can now so it is off my gosh, how did that happen? It's 12 o'clock. And I just want to take a moment here to ask you this question. Would you like to know the best way to encourage your autistic young adult to get things done? And if you're answering yes, I have great news because that is exactly what we will discuss today. So I'm thrilled that to to that but that our guest is going to explain her 12 Great ideas and trust me She has many more than 12 but we're just at this point able to to cover those 12 about getting stuff done. And that's by improving executive functioning skills. By collaborating and harnessing grit, which is so cool. So I'm Lynn Davison, I'm an adulting. Coach. I help autistic young adults and their families systemize adulting together, and I'm just thrilled to work. bring to you these kinds of guests. Who just know so much and have such practical knowledge, like on how it really can be done. So, our guests specializes in helping alternative learners manage their attention, anxiety, learning and mental health. Challenges. She's got the whole picture here. With over 25 years of clinical experience. She brings a positive strength based approach that we wish all of our children could have. Thank you for being here. Dr. Sharon, saline.

Dr. Sharon Saline 12:50
Thank you so much for having me and for that beautiful introduction. Thank you.

Lynn Davison 12:55
You're welcome. You're welcome. So here's the thinking is that I was introduced to Dr. Celine through the executive functioning online Summit. And the what I did was I put together a PDF of her that summarized her the 12 great ideas that she presented there. And then I brought in some of the some of the additional writing and videos that she's created. And I have that as a gift to everybody that attends. So I'm so excited to get back to you. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to go over her 12 Great ideas that I summarized in that document. So the first one we're going to start on is you know, focus on what's working and enhance it, which is a great way to get started.

Dr. Sharon Saline 13:37
It's so important because I think a lot of times as parents we zoom in on what's not working and we want to we want to fix a and b and c and improve all of those areas. And it's overwhelming for kids. So we want to sort of approach change with some more balance. And one of the things that's so important in developing a growth mindset which is critical for alternative learners, is to be able to know what you're good at. And to lean into those strengths, to balance out the parts of yourself that you may go I'm not really that good at this thing. So we want to help our kids and work with them to identify you know, something that they really love. What do they what do they think they're really good at what brings them joy, and make sure that's in there a lot in their daily life and then focus on one or two or three. I encourage you to stick to one one or two not more areas. 171 you can retain one thing at a time that you'd like to see improved and then when that kind of gets underway for a couple months, usually about three months when you start to see okay, look, that's kind of long there's some repetition there's routine very important for teaching a new skill patience repetition routine patients, then you can say okay, that needs a little bit less support. We could add perhaps something else.

Lynn Davison 15:10
I just watched a video explaining the domino effect that one domino can knock over the next Domino. It's one and a half its times its weight and size, and then the next one that can knock over the next one. And so that's why I believe that starting with just one and having a success, then you'll start to have the domino effect where the little domino you know, it only takes like 40 times before the biggest Domino is the size of the distance between here and the moon. I mean, really, the potential is unlimited, but we when we start with one thing at a time and get some success there then we all feel confident that we can continue.

Dr. Sharon Saline 15:56
Absolutely. And we want to remember that these alternatives learners are often kids who feel overwhelmed. Oh, yeah, very easily. And so if they're if they're feeling overwhelmed, why do we want to add more things into experience? There already? Processing Speed Yes.

Lynn Davison 16:20
You know,

Dr. Sharon Saline 16:22
the the the the cognitive assessments, the academic the assessments that are done for testing for psychological testing, psycho educational testing, we you know, will often reveal different factors of cognition, and you know, processing speed is one of them. And for kids whose processing speed is lower than other factors like verbal comprehension, or visual and spatial, visual and perceptual reasoning or fluid reasoning. We want to remember that their experience is one where information comes in and it takes them longer to sort it into the place that has to go. One of my clients said to me, it's like this stuff. The file comes in my brain and the papers go, and I start to pick up those papers. And then the next file comes in my brain, and those papers go everywhere. And then the next file comes in my brain and those papers go everywhere, and I'm still working on papers from the first file.

Lynn Davison 17:30
Such a wonderful description of what it feels like. Yeah. And so then we can have that compassion. Because we've all been overwhelmed. We've all felt overwhelmed. And yeah, and so by slowing things down, and you know, taking one step at a time, it's really the approach that works. So talk about the brain some more because, yeah, what? Processing Speed working memory, all that stuff comes from the way the brain came together.

Dr. Sharon Saline 18:05
Right? So the brain develops from the back to the front and the inside out. The back of the brain is our physiological brain. It's often called the reptilian brain because we share it with reptiles. And it's the oldest part of our brain and this part of the brain and has to do with you know, blood pressure and heart rate and breathing. And some people you know, there's some kind of discussion about whether the amygdala the ability you know, that the, and the relationship to cortisol is part of that brain or what's part of the middle part of the brain, which is often called the emotional brain or the failure brain, because the individual is actually seated in this part of the brain in the limbic system, but what happens is that, you know, information will be processed, particularly in a dangerous situation, information will be processed there first. Yes, before the thinking brain, the cognition, the cognitive brain, the human brain can actually be kind of grasp what's going on. And that's because that part of our brain is what keeps us alive. That's part of our brain launches fight, flight or freeze. And so what we see in particularly in in kids with ADHD we see this research that the, the connections from the prefrontal cortex to the rest of the brain happen more slowly. The myelination process, the connectivity, a little lag of up to about three years. And for kids who have who are on the autism spectrum, it can be two years or more. So so we want to remember that these are kids who have a biological brain difference. Yes. Now executive functioning skills, develop it you know, they don't develop in a linear fashion and can be two steps forward and one setback, you'll make progress. You'll see a lot of progress in one area and then regression or regroup aggression or while there's that progress, there could be a regression another because there are you know, depending on who you ask 11 to 12 executive functioning skills. there's general agreement that the last executive functioning skill, which is called metacognition, but I refer to it as self a self evaluation. It's called self awareness. It has lots of names, but generally it's the ability to think about your thinking. And it's the ability to, you know, sort of grasp the entirety of a concept of a situation and make a make a decision and make you know, a decision based on your understanding of the various consequences. This part of this this ability metacognition, while we can develop it, we start young childhood, like how do you think you're doing and what do you think you could do and you might be able to apply in the situation. It's the last part of the brain to actually coalesce around age 25. And neurotypical brain at least as close to 28 and those with ADHD.

Lynn Davison 21:22
It's kind of a miracle that we have this brain here, right? And then we're able to look at the brain working evolutionarily that is, that's a miracle.

Dr. Sharon Saline 21:34
It is, and that's what metacognition is. What our frontal lobe says they allow us to think about ourselves and to think about our thinking. So it is kind of it is incredible. And it takes time to develop it. I mean, I'm working with someone right now and I met with his parents yesterday. And you know, you live with someone every day, you don't always see this, but I said, you know, like, I'm thinking about where he is now compared to where he was a year ago. And where he is now, you know, 15 versus where he was, you know, last year at 14 is, you know, he's able to talk about you, this is what's going on in my brain all the time, and I don't like it. I'm like, wow, okay.

Lynn Davison 22:17
Well, you know, like wareness and

Dr. Sharon Saline 22:19
that's great. Let's, I know I said, Let's spend two minutes. Everything you're thinking yes. And, you know, I thought if I was living in that brain, I'd be exhausted now. Never. It never stopped traveling all over the place. I know. And he's and that's a problem for me in school because I'm smart, and I can't do the things I want to do. Mm hmm. I said to the parents. I don't think you have any idea how much growth has happened in one year for him to be able to say that, really?

Lynn Davison 22:47
At that age? Yes. Yes.

Dr. Sharon Saline 22:52
He's getting therapy now with me for two years. Yeah. And so he's, he's learned to think about this thing off and what his his self awareness is. Is is blossoming, and it's confusing. At the same time,

Lynn Davison 23:11
well, imagine how much better he's going to, you know, how much more growth there is ahead of him, and how much better he's going to be able to solve his own problems over time. Even right, we're gone. You know, right. This is right there. That's the gift that we give them a weekend when we have them. Work with people who can help make that happen. So they can name things. You name things. Yes, so that goes right into the pills don't teach skills. I'm on Facebook, many Facebook pages of that support parents with autistic kids. And often it's which drug do you you know, which prescription Do you prescribe? And I'm very much pro using whatever tools we have. So if it's a miracle that we have these, you know, pharmaceutical tools at the same time, it's really helpful. If they if we pair that with the skills.

Unknown Speaker 24:03
Well, what's interesting is that your research shows that about 50% of kids whose primary diagnosis is ASD have ADHD. But if your primary diagnosis is ADHD about 14% of those kids have a secondary ASD diagnosis. And then, you know, we get into the twice exceptional kids. Yes. And, you know, that's about point 5% of the young population, but you know, 9% of twice exceptional kids also have learning disabilities. Yes. So, and the twice exceptional statistics are, you know, such a wide range of who's what and who struggle who has these strengths and these challenges, but overall you know, medication can help kids integrate and, and retain skills and manage themselves more effectively is if they can help with self regulation. But you know, it's not necessarily going to teach you how to use a planner. It might help you with the more unconscious skills, focus, yeah, working memory, or, you know, guiding your attention to where you want it to go. But it's not necessarily going to help you figure out you know, once you do your brain dump of all the things you have to do what's most important, and so that's where we need to have collaboration with adults. Interestingly, there's a study that came out of the University of Pennsylvania that showed that kids who have who are diagnosed whose primary diagnosis as ASD, and have symptoms, you know, significant symptoms of ADHD but don't perhaps meet the criteria for a full diagnosis. When they are given stimulants. It helps with both symptoms of ADHD and autism. Yep.

Lynn Davison 26:08
And figuring that out is, in our family at least has is a const. There's just a constant improvement process going on there because sometimes they get side effects from them. And then we have to figure out what's a different route and what's you know, it's the chemical soup isn't always the same. And it's definitely not the child. Definitely.

Dr. Sharon Saline 26:33
I was I was just having a conversation with someone about this, as I said, a nurse prescriber and I'm no problem with psychiatrists it's not a science. No, it just because you can't like have a blood test, or I can't tell you what you need. You can have an MRI of your brain and say, Okay, this is what's going to work. It's it's, it's she said, You're right. It's an art. You know, we take the scientific information that we have and we apply it to this person in this situation. And it's very frustrating to be the subject of that artist.

Lynn Davison 27:08
It's an experiment.

Dr. Sharon Saline 27:11
I don't want to be experimented on. You know, I hate this. You know,

Lynn Davison 27:16
it makes sense to me. I don't like you know, I watched it happen and I've watched that and when you mess with I had took a an antidepressant for more than a decade. And then it started giving me an abnormal heart rate. It raised it in my blood pressure. So I had to come off of it and I was worried that I was gonna get depressed again once I came off of it. But it took me a year to get off of a very low dose of it. And that's because my brain had to adjust to not having that chemical so it took a year, more sleep and exercising every day and managing my mind through using a seer map. Which is what I what I advocate. It's a great tool in my course. And I was I've watched my my children also when they move from one medication to the other, anxious to try the new one. But you've got to you can't go so fast. Sometimes, right?

Dr. Sharon Saline 28:09
And that's the thing like these chemicals are very powerful.

Lynn Davison 28:13
Yes, they are. And like you said, we don't know a lot about them. No, no works. We're just experimenting right now. But I'm so glad we have them because they've made a difference in my kids lives. They really have. Yeah,

Dr. Sharon Saline 28:26
I mean, it's it's a blessing to live at this time in are a lot in, in society, in sort of society, in culture to have these options, but it's also complicated.

Lynn Davison 28:39
Yep. So let's do the next one. And then we're going to pause and welcome everybody and see what questions they have. So the five C's self control, compassion, collaboration, consistency, and celebration. These are from your book, what your ADHD child wishes, you knew.

Dr. Sharon Saline 28:58
Yes. So what I want to say about the five C's is, you know, I interviewed a number of kids, you know, over three over three dozen kids and, and their parents and what I found is that kids feel like they want parents to manage themselves first because they struggle themselves with themselves with self regulation. That if you or as a parent are dysregulated they feel like how am I gonna manage myself, you know, and part of the problem is that when kids are dysregulated they often export their feelings onto their parents who then import them and get more agitated. Oh, yeah. So the blame

Lynn Davison 29:43
game goes around and around.

Dr. Sharon Saline 29:48
Self control is really being able to notice what's going on with you and regulate yourself first, which is the hardest thing and I recommend that if you're feeling activated or you're feeling triggered, go to the bathroom, close the door, and wash your hands. Put some water in your face or just like close the lid to the toilet and sit down. Look at a magazine for 20 seconds for two minutes. Whatever's happening on the other side of the door will still be there. When you're done including kids banging on the door come out when are you coming out? You know and that mom? I need you now. And that will give you a chance to be with yourself because kids know that parent people go to the bathroom by themselves.

Lynn Davison 30:36
Such a great strategy, just go to the bathroom.

Dr. Sharon Saline 30:42
And then this is the second cm I'll move quickly. The second thing is compassion, which is we talked about meeting our kids where they are not where we were that we think they should be. And practicing self compassion because we like our kids are doing the best we can in a given moment with the resources we have available to us. Yes. Collaboration working with our kids for solutions to challenging issues rather than imposing what we think it should be. Even young children have some ideas about what how to solve a problem or to create a routine or do something. We don't have to do everything they say, but if you can incorporate some piece of what they want into whatever plan or activity or creating, you're going to do better because they will have buy in.

Lynn Davison 31:37
Yep. And that's what Ross screen promotes on his website lives into balance. And it's wonderful that that whole process. Yeah.

Dr. Sharon Saline 31:44
And then what we want to talk about is consistent with not perfection. This is meeting people where they this is not about perfection. Excuse me. It's about steadiness. It's about what I call efforting. And someone once called recently call me out and it's like, I can't believe you made up a word I have lost all respect for you because you've made it I was like wow.

Dr. Sharon Saline 32:15
efforting is a word that I created particularly for neurodivergent people, because

Unknown Speaker 32:21
it's more than just trying

Dr. Sharon Saline 32:22
Yes, I guess. You know, I'll give it a shot. Recruiting is what neurodivergent people have to do when they attempt something because it's not just I'll give it a shot. It's I gotta get all my executive functioning skills. I got paid attention I got to do with my body and my psychology. my emotions, my my my EF skills. That's what efforting is and being

Lynn Davison 32:46
willing to do it over and over again. Like that, it just doesn't happen. Fast. Most know, most worthwhile things take more than you know take a lot of efforting

Dr. Sharon Saline 33:00
Yes, exactly. And that's part of why equity isn't trying because equity includes repetition. Yep. Yep, it's not just a one shot thing. Yep. Yep. So and then finally celebration, which is not like I'm going to bake your cake because you could have the table celebration is about noticing and validating and acknowledging when our kids are doing things that they really they're supposed to be doing. Yeah, when we see them actually do in those engaged in that process of efforting. So you know, there's been a lot of research on happiness in the last decade. Yeah, you know, whether it's Martin Seligman or Dr. Barbara Fredrickson, and there's just been a lot of research and what Barbara Fredrickson found, you know, in the positive psychology area, is that ideally, there should be three positives for every negative, heavily researched in all areas. So work and relationship and everything. Yeah. And, you know, I've gone around and I'd be curious, you know, we asked people who are whispering with us, you know, what did they think the ratio is? For every one negative comment that your child hears or you hear how many positives are now?

Lynn Davison 34:18
I know, it sounds.

Dr. Sharon Saline 34:20
I said that backwards? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For every one positive how many negative? Yes. Yeah. No. So for a record one time you hear something good, like, how many negatives do you hear? Because the numbers that I've heard from people are astounding. Yeah. Particularly, you know, when I talk to teenagers, and they're like, Well, what I say to myself, or what other people say to me,

Lynn Davison 34:43
that's a question

Dr. Sharon Saline 34:45
the total Yeah, what do you think the answer is?

Lynn Davison 34:50
Yes, it's not good. It's less than one positive for every negative got to be.

Dr. Sharon Saline 34:57
Oh, it's one positive for like 30 Negative.

Lynn Davison 35:01
Yes. Yeah. That makes perfect sense, especially in the way that we talk to ourselves. And our kids tend to be more self critical.

Dr. Sharon Saline 35:07
Correct. So you know, there's what there's what people say to us. And then what that you know, critical part of ourselves says to, to us to like I named that critical part of myself, I've taken Richard Schwartz to a new level. was working with ifs, you know, my mind is, I've named mine Poindexter the perfectionist, and point as

Lynn Davison 35:32
not a name you hear very often. Good one. Yeah. No, but he's always yesterday.

Dr. Sharon Saline 35:37
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. He's letting me know when I overslept all the time. And you know, when I don't make when I don't measure up, it's even worse. Hmm. I know. So it's like how Yeah, and your kids have all your kids have all kinds of, of these their own point. X was one of my clients. I sat with her yesterday and she said, I'm gonna come you know, mine is loser. Loser like is LeBron is loser, the leprechaun.

Lynn Davison 36:11
Loser. Come on. Nice alliteration.

Dr. Sharon Saline 36:16
She's very bright. Yes. She's like, Yeah, because everything is luck. It has nothing to do with actual skill. Oh, that's profound. Yeah.

Lynn Davison 36:24
Sounds like she nailed it. For her. Wow. So we do have a couple of comments from napton. And please feel free to put some comments there in the chat. And if you could just let us know where you're from. So that would be cool. But napton said parenting challenge with ADHD and ASD is challenging. self regulation is challenging if the parent has ADHD and ASD is twice as challenging especially if the parent was not given not afforded the awareness and training as a child that would have helped with the five C's. Yeah, yes. And then she goes on from a vantage point of inclusion in society. The five sheets C's should be extended to all parents of all children and to the way we interact with others in invisible disabilities as well as known cases of disability like you know, in school teachers. Boy that would make the world work a lot better for everyone, wouldn't it? If we didn't,

Dr. Sharon Saline 37:25
and thank you Knapton for sharing and I have to say my mom says that the five C's is for everybody. Yeah, not just for people with ADHD. But she's my mom. Thank you, mom. But I think you're right. You know, I think if that if that you know if you're if your channel if you are have what I call an FE or an outside the box thinker, or an alternative learner or you're scattered yourself. You know, you're supposed to live in a world that's not designed for your brain, right? And it's not even that it's not designed for your brain. It's not flexible for your brain, and it's very judgmental about your brain. And so, you know, you grew up and it's any you know, if you're a parent of three kids and you sound like you are you you're you're busy and you're you know that you you grew up in a time where we didn't understand how, you know, when I was parenting, my daughter who's 23 Like, we still didn't understand a lot about girls with ADHD. And now there's research that's coming out about women and ADHD. In fact, attitude magazine published a big study, and what we're finding is that you know, what the research is showing that a lot of women sort of masks don't know even that they have ADHD, they just think, you know, intense or, you know, I'm kind of wired for sound was what I used to say about myself, and then I went through perimenopause, and I was like, I had horrible emotional regulation. Like I just lost it at times that were just terrible. And, you know, of course, my doctor recommended Prozac, but no one ever talked about and no, people don't know

Lynn Davison 39:17
Yeah, that's when I got my antidepressant. And no one told me that it was going to be took me take me a year to come off of it. No one explained to me what the brain chemicals were being affected and how and why. And no one suggested that there were some tools and techniques that I could use to do the metacognition I didn't even know that word until a decade ago. That would have helped me not have those thoughts that put me into the depression tip. I didn't No one gave me any of that. And

Dr. Sharon Saline 39:45
so and you know, and Prozac is great, don't don't get oh, no,

Lynn Davison 39:49
I yeah, I'm glad we had these.

Dr. Sharon Saline 39:52
But it's not it doesn't help if you don't have a car, if you don't sort of if it's just like, well, you're anxious and depressed. But if the context is a little bit greater, like you know what, you're struggling with emotional regulation and verbal control, because because when you lose your estrogen, yes, you lose something that's moderated your attention. You lose something that's helped manage your mood, and you you lose something that's contributed to your memory. No one tells you that and I'm a professional so called, you know, expert,

Lynn Davison 40:30
right. And it's biological how long

Dr. Sharon Saline 40:34
1515 years ago, no one was talking about that.

Lynn Davison 40:38
No, I had to have, you know, complete hysterectomy and ovary removal because of uterine cancer. In 2007. So how long ago was that 15 years ago? And that threw me right into it, boy, but nobody explained. Well, yeah, how that's gonna affect my brain. No one explained any of that. Until you said that. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I just learned that from you. I always learned something for me. Wow. That's a big one. Thank you. You

Dr. Sharon Saline 41:09
will thank you for sharing that. And I'm glad you're healthy. Oh, yeah. I'm glad you're healthy. I am good. But I think that this is a going to be a huge issue. And I decided that every time I talk to people, I'm bringing it up, because women need to know yes, we need to know that what is happening to us. I remember, this is not like you're not crazy. I remember this will be 15 years ago or so I went to see Dr. Barclay speak and keep saying that having it he actually said at the time that having ADHD was like going through menopause. And I was like, wow, but he didn't really elaborate

Lynn Davison 41:55
my trauma there from them and

Dr. Sharon Saline 41:58
why does he would do something differently, but because the research is different, and there's so much more information, but you know, no. Big thing to say.

Lynn Davison 42:09
Good to know. Good to know, for all the people that are listening here. Yes, definitely. So we're halfway through and we're not quite halfway through your 12 ideas and I want to because there's so good this one about having to use cues, checklists, I love

Dr. Sharon Saline 42:27
them. So I'm just gonna say one thing about this like, this is your friend. This is your friend. No alert, alarm notifications, the Pomodoro Technique, go on the website, download it, have the tomato timer on your computer. There's nothing wrong with queues and we want to talk with our kids about the difference between a cue and a reminder because it's a reminder is a neg Why aren't you doing? Or can you please do bla bla bla which may seem like a nag but it might not be a nag so we have to help differentiate for them. There's a difference between nagging and queuing. And that's all I want to say about that. So we can go on to

Lynn Davison 43:15
so important so very important.

Dr. Sharon Saline 43:19
Yes is added something in the thing that's that they,

Lynn Davison 43:23
their daughter has high anxiety and then and disappeared. It disappeared but that's okay. We can address it because we do have a lot of kids. I just think frankly that you know, so many of people with ADHD ASD have have high levels of anxiety. It's like they're it's like their Migdal is on fire.

Dr. Sharon Saline 43:47
Right and there is something to be said for what's happening biologically. You know that the amygdala doesn't actually you know that the system in the brain may not actually be wired in a way to help you. Right that switch to OFF or do you like him or mode? Yeah, yeah. And so, in terms of the number six great idea moved from disk combat to connection to compassion. We can link that to this question. My daughter's anxiety is debilitated debilitating for many years. So what happens is that when people are anxious, there, they are perceiving danger. Yes. When there is when they're when they're, when there may be danger or when there may not be danger, but their perception of the danger is distorted as their response to the danger to this perceived danger is also distorted. And so what happens is, is that there's a constant firing if from the from the adrenaline and cortisol, which makes it very hard to settle, because there's no sense of safety in the body. You know, and we know that you know, through vessel Vander Waals work and many others, that there are memories that we hold in our body, but there's also that a sense of, you know, cellular tension and if I can say that, so we want to try to help people who are anxious, both figure out what physiological tools they can use to find some calm in their body because we want to settle the body and then settle the mind. That's where people often try to say, like, I just got to change you know, I have to change stop thinking that way or it's not going to be such a big deal or you'll be fine. That will do nothing. What we have to do is actually deal with the physiological aspects because that's what anxiety is worried thinking, a distorted cognitive, psychological beliefs and cognitive beliefs and a physiological reaction. So for me, if you know for your daughter, I would really encourage if she can maybe do some sign up online is so great right now they could do you could do yoga. Yes, she could do you know any of Kristen naps self compassion classes. I happen to know that Kristin Neff is doing a workshop this weekend starting tomorrow, three hours on Saturday, three hours on Sunday through Spirit Rock in California. On self compassion, yeah. So we want to try to, you know, help her understand and just be able to do some guided meditation after as well as to start to engage with that anxious voice. So you know, whether it's alternate nostril breathing from yoga, I, I refer to something that I created called triangle breathing, where you breathe in for four. You hold her for and you breathe out for six, and then you pause on empty, and then you repeat the triangle over and over. And that kind of helps you. So you can do we can all do it right now. Breathe in for 41234 hold for 41234 and breathe out some 6123456 and pause and do that again.

Lynn Davison 47:37
Oh, a lot of times the image is so nice. Yeah, yeah. So nice,

Dr. Sharon Saline 47:42
right? I mean, it comes from that you're there's this thing called Box breathing, where you breathe in for four you breathe out before you breathe in for four you hold before you breathe out for six. But that didn't resonate with me.

Lynn Davison 47:53
Now. I'm trying because

Dr. Sharon Saline 47:54
it's not a long enough exhale. Yeah. And it's not exhale. That's so important. And then that little pause when you round the corner, for the next leg of the triangle.

Lynn Davison 48:04
Yeah, Kristin Neff wrote a good book on all that self compassion.

Dr. Sharon Saline 48:07
I mean, she's really the least amazing. Yeah, and work is amazing. And if you don't know the work, I really encourage you to check out her work.

Lynn Davison 48:17
Yeah, my kids. My adult children, I call them kids. I hope that's okay. Ask me what do you do you know, when their partner is jacked, and and I said something physical? They looked at me like yeah, because you can't reason your way out of the jack being jacked up. Yeah, you need to do some

Dr. Sharon Saline 48:36
typing Kristen Epps name here. Yeah, it's, um, here we go. Yeah. You can't do anything on your jacket, the EU and other personal forces Tara brach offices in here too. Yeah. And also Jack Orangefield Oh,

Lynn Davison 48:53
yes, they both

Dr. Sharon Saline 48:55
they both have Cara Brock and Jack Kornfield have a wonderful like 30 Day or 40 day meditation course on Insight Timer, 10 minutes a day, per fan. You know, these are things that can really help anxious people just start to be able to be with themselves because the problem with anxiety is you're you're just jumping out of your skin.

Lynn Davison 49:18
I call us a washing machine. The thoughts are going around so fast. You cannot distinguish one piece of one thought from the next. And that, you know, that's where we need to just leave and go someplace breathe out anything, whatever you're doing push ups, I don't care what it is, you know, something physical, that helps. It will help better than trying to figure it out because your brain wants to figure it out because it loves to solve problems. That's That's right. And then back to your work together for solutions. It's just the collaborative problem solving process that I have here where we, you know, we start with facts because they're neutral. Then we look at what they're thinking which I call them that their steer map, and that's the empathy step. And then we present ours but we present it in short, succinct messages because there's just not enough you know, brain space to process a whole discussion about how you walk to school uphill in the snow both ways. You know, we need to we need to really get to st and then find the next steps and as if you as you do this project, this process, you'll find the next steps as you're doing it.

Dr. Sharon Saline 50:23
I love that. That's fantastic. Yeah. Beautiful.

Lynn Davison 50:26
Yeah. Yeah. Big difference in our family. I'd love to say we do it consistently, but we're working on that part.

Dr. Sharon Saline 50:35
Nobody's perfect. Yeah, we're doing the best we can.

Lynn Davison 50:37
And thank you. Thank you for number eight because you're one of the only people I found that actually understands what is difficult for parents. Why it's difficult.

Dr. Sharon Saline 50:49
Right. So what's difficult for parents is we bring our own Invisible Backpack. It's a good world. Our issues. Our experiences are baggage as it were with us to our parenting and even if you've done a lot of therapy, you're gonna get kids that somehow like no Josie you haven't exactly worked on or you haven't mastered and you know, it's unbelievable. I was like, really you know, cuz I might my dad was like, why didn't you do more work before you had as a teenager, and I was like yes,

Dr. Sharon Saline 51:34
yes years. No, you'd come here and you'd like push the red, invisible red by the middle of night. Yeah, I didn't know that.

Dr. Sharon Saline 51:41
So we have our own histories and we bring those to our parenting whether consciously or unconsciously, and so, you know, what we can do is just, you know, try to make our way our own awareness of what's ours, and what we're bringing to a situation, and then how is that affecting the choices that we're making in our parenting? And I'm gonna tell you, nobody can do this in the height of like, episode. It's something that you get you know, that comes to you over time that you learn to say, You know what, I think I'm going to take a little break right now. This is getting too hot for me. We'll come back and I'll come back in 15 minutes when I settled,

Lynn Davison 52:24
I gotta go to the bathroom. Go to the bathroom. So practical and so real, you know, because it does, it gets us going and it's better when we're settled. It just is. And then I love your acronym for grit. Oh, my, this is so good.

Dr. Sharon Saline 52:43
So you know, the thing is, we all have grit. Yes. You know this like you need to harness your grit and a quiet, unlike, you know, what are you talking about, you know, people who are who are neurodivergent people who are, you know, who've experienced racism or sexism or homophobia or you know, any kind of isn't any kind of isn't. You have grit every more every day, every morning, you wake up and you take, you know, you pull it together to get out of the house. And so, you know,

Dr. Sharon Saline 53:18
I'm upon unchanging grit, instead of saying, you know, you

Dr. Sharon Saline 53:22
need to use the grit you have. I'm like, forget that. Let's just break it down. Yeah. So grid, we're going to apply the grid that we have, we're going to get situated when we have a task. We're going to try to we're going to figure out what we need to do to resist distractions. Do I put my phone away? Do I put all my fun stuff on a different browser? Do i i set up you know, the stay on task app that pops up every you know, 10 minutes to say, where what are you thinking about? What am I going to do to resist distraction? What incentives am I going to use to help myself get through a task I don't want to do so for example, you know, I have you know, like 150 emails in my box. You know, I it takes a lot

Lynn Davison 54:11
of Yeah, stick to it here in this to go through Yeah.

Dr. Sharon Saline 54:18
Okay. Yeah. So you know, what I do is I'm gonna do 30 minutes. I'm gonna set my timer again, at the end of 30 minutes. I'm taking myself whatever. Sunshine. Yeah. And that's it. And maybe I'll do 30 minutes at the end of the day. Yeah, we can't do 150 emails at one time. Oh, yeah, it does require executive functioning skill, Nancy, and it's how we apply our executive functioning skills. So and then finally, we're going to talk to a small step so that we just talk through a small step. I have these emails. I'm going to break it down a small step, which I feel like I can handle for some people. 30 minutes might be too much. I'd be five. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. So you want to figure out what that is? Yeah. So in order to apply your grit, yes, this is this works. With budding and nurturing executive functioning skills. What do I need to get set up? How am I going to resist the distractions? Okay, what incentive do I want to set for myself, to motivate me to initiate and get started? And how am I gonna break down a task into small enough chunks, so I don't procrastinate. And I can feel a sense of success and sustain my attention and meet my goal.

Lynn Davison 55:41
Yes, yes. And this all dovetails really well with I don't know if you're familiar with Pierre Steele's progress estimation equation, but it's an Oh, good piece of work.

Dr. Sharon Saline 55:52
Can you can you type it down? Yeah, it's he i e r

Lynn Davison 55:55
i e r s. Steel. I think it's Ste l piers steel. And he wrote down the procraft that he broke broke down motivation into the for con the For cons parts of it. For anybody that can take things down and simplify it is a genius as far as I'm concerned and explains the whole thing and then there's, I will link to that. The, the notes I have on him and and other wonderful resources about his procrastination equation in the transcript that you'll get, hopefully by Sunday could be Monday. We'll see how much I can do on the weekend.

Dr. Sharon Saline 56:35
I have a couple of downloadables on my website around motivation. Yes. Fascination Yes. Also written about it on several my website and in my Psychology Today blog. So I would really encourage people to check those out as

Lynn Davison 56:49
well. They really helped because it helps us understand that this is not a character flaw, that there are elements that we can manipulate to increase or decrease our motivation. And it helps us to understand how ours works. And then we can start talking and figuring out what the thoughts are that are influencing those four elements. And so good to know that listening and figuring out how people think is the key that meta metacognition is really the most helpful way to approach it. In that's how we do it in the art of adulting. So I love Smith. Oh, what's different Maggie Smith,

Dr. Sharon Saline 57:28
man. Hilarious. Yes. Very funny. Yeah, yeah,

Lynn Davison 57:31
yeah. Where we just need to really stop the I call it suggesting advising and criticizing and just, we just need to stop that. Because nobody wants to hear. None of us do. And especially our young adults, our suggestions don't stick. They just get frustrated with hearing it all and really what they just want us to support them and help us help them do what they think is the right thing to do.

Dr. Sharon Saline 57:58
Yes. So say that again, it was suggesting and what were

Lynn Davison 58:01
the other two stacking I call it suggesting advising and criticizing. We need to stop sacking them because it literally pulls them down. Suggesting advising and criticizing.

Dr. Sharon Saline 58:13
I love that and start on reflective something that I'm learning today. That's great. Yeah,

Lynn Davison 58:19
we have to start the reflective listening process which I learned from Dalton Bob Bolton. And in their book, listen up or lose out and they went all over the world, advising corporate, lots of different corporations on how to help their managers and leaders do better listening. And so yes, it also applies to the system inside our family.

Dr. Sharon Saline 58:46
Yes, reflective listening is so important. And it's it's very hard to do, particularly if you're triggered because you know what I heard you say is blank. Did I get that right? Is there anything else? Really what you want to say is Are you out of your mind? You know, are you brave? I'm kidding me. I know that will work, right? That's not going to work

Lynn Davison 59:08
and trying to teach our autistic young adults to do this as well as a challenge because it requires processing the information they're receiving, and then bringing it back out again. And sometimes that processing speed takes a while. And that whole habitual you know, giving us some feedback from an ASD person's perspective has is a challenge. That's where this social skills you know, differences happen. And so,

Dr. Sharon Saline 59:33
one that you know, one of the things that we're talking about, we want to stop arguing is you want things to slow down. We want to slow things down. Because you know, it's hard to process when things are going fast. You're not able to regulate you and your your your kids, particularly those who are alternative learners they can't regulate. If you and your if you're not regulated. So we want that that's really the first intervention which is slow down

Lynn Davison 1:00:02
the process. Yep, in fact, I we end up with that one on 12. But let's just get to your really important thing. In fact, it's really cool because I used to have screen free Sundays when my kids were young. And today they're saying you know, mom you're onto something with that back then they hated it. But today they're going you are writing because there's just too many inputs from screens and our brains aren't aren't designed to take them all in. So I love your limit screen time. You know as a as a great idea and helped me figure out how to implement this one will you?

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:00:40
Well, this is where collaboration Yes, I could you know your kids have some idea of what they need to do on their screen and there are different types of screen usage. You know, there's what I have to do for school and what I want to do for fun and how do I relax, you know? Yeah, so we play we work we study from the same screen, it's confusing, you know, and even if we use our phones, you know, we are now like, we touch our phone 1000s of times a day. So, this when we're thinking about screen time, you know what I think we want to do if your parents, someone has a question with adult children, and I'll get to that in a minute. But if you're a parent, you if you're parenting by yourself or you have a parenting partner, you want to sit down and say you know how much screen time not for school or work. You know, do I want my child to have

Lynn Davison 1:01:46
well and and I think with adult children, it's the same question. You just asked them to answer the question. How much screen time

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:01:54
are you going to ask your younger children to see the question to how much

Lynn Davison 1:01:57
how much screen time time do

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:02:00
you want? How much time do you think you want to have on your screen isn't vertical,

Lynn Davison 1:02:05
right and the first time you think the first question is how much time are you spending on screens?

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:02:10
Well, that would be that would be a question. That would be my next question. Like how much time do you think you should have on your screen? Like how much time do you want to have and then how much time do you actually have? Yeah, like what are you actually doing? Where are you going? And then, you know, you know what you think you'd like what you want to have, what you do have? And then understanding that whatever you have right now isn't really working because you're not turning your homework in when your grades are kind of, you know, not where you would like them to be by your own report. We need to do something different. And so the way the way I think about screens personally isn't screens are a privilege. Yes. Yeah. The screen time for school is not a privilege because it's part of like doing school, but the rest of screen like that. If you don't, you know, you don't come into the world and like need to have tick tock. Right. So, so good

Unknown Speaker 1:03:11
question. Yes, yes. Time for

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:03:14
fun. Ryan. You know, what are you going to do that is beginning so every day maybe you get your kid gets you know, an hour that they know that they get no matter what unless unless they violate using screen appropriately. Yeah, right. So they're up in the middle. They sneak in in the middle of the night. Oh, yeah, I'm gonna get that hour. They visit inappropriate sites. They're not going to get it. They post things that should not be posted. That's going to affect it. So there are some guidelines. Okay. Right. Generally they get their hours. Or I like to keep that for that Guinea sort of low. So like 45 minutes, maybe 30 minutes. And then of course, you know, we're trying to get to the two hours of fun screen time a day, because that's what you know, let's say that's the number that we all agree on. So then how are we going to get to that number? Well, we're going to earn it in 30 minute chunks. So you come home and you you take the dog out which is your responsibility, and you have snack and then you do some homework. Then you get your 30 minutes of your bonus of your of your fruit your aren't your Give me time. Okay, well, how are you gonna get off that 30 minutes you're giving me time? You're gonna have a tantrum. You're gonna yell me. The only years you're not going to get your bonus time. So you get to school on time. Maybe you earn 30 minutes of bonus time for that. So you can connect activities and responsibilities to earn screen time bonus points. So the if the baseline is 30 minutes and you want to get they want to get up to two hours, right, you know, wake up without cursing at me.

Lynn Davison 1:05:18
That's a good start.

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:05:20
Yeah, it to school on time. Yeah. You know, yeah, there'll be each of those could be 30 minutes. And it's your homework and show me that you turned it in. You'll get another 30 minutes.

Lynn Davison 1:05:31
Yep. And with our adults then we say okay, well, what do you what are your ideas? You know what, right and let me share adult right our concern to their adult

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:05:42
kids with adult kids. So we want to say is we want to have a tour, we want to zoom out a little bit in a conversation like what do you think the role of screens is in your life? And is that how you want it to be? Yeah, you know how much time are you spending on your screen versus doing things that would be more satisfying to you? Because you feel better about yourself? Like the question I always ask adults is like, well, particularly emerging adults like well, how do you feel when you get off? Like when you're when you're on your screen for 30 minutes looking at, you know, Snapchat of what other people are doing or Instagram. How do you feel about yourself? Yeah.

Lynn Davison 1:06:28
And yet, so many of my kids use screens to connect, because it seems to be a good place for them. To be social. So I want to make sure that you know, that that works for them. At the same time. I want to warn them of overuse, you know, so we're trying to find the Goldilocks place.

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:06:47
Exactly. It is a Goldilocks place because we want to be able to say is yes I want to have a certain amount of time where I'm connecting with people online. But then I also want to learn how to connect with people face to face, and that's hard for a lot of who have who are on the spectrum and also may have ADHD or a learning disability. And that because it's there the distance is safer. It's more comfortable Nancy selling Nancy saying that that's how her daughter communicate successful in socializes because she struggles with face to face socialization. So we want to try to slowly help them learn how to do that. And maybe that's just going to a local cafe and ordering something to eat to practice that skill.

Lynn Davison 1:07:41
Oh, the practice is so good. And especially if you can make an occasion or a celebration out of it, it just you know it makes it more attractive, because it's something that is scary. It sounds sets those alarm bells off in their heads. And it connects it connects to your last point because if we can help if we can maintain our connection with them, and describe how we're doing it, you know, I just want you to know this that I'm trying to notice whatever you do well, and you know, notice how that makes you feel. And then imagine if you notice how somebody you cared about was doing something well and told them so it's it's the connection and you alluded to these three, you know, slow down, get low arousal, and be loving because our kids can sense that and if we can teach them to do the same thing with their friends, you know, slow things down. Try to get to a low arousal and really project love to your friends. Then maybe you know if they're thinking about what they're trying to give away, then the focus on themselves might, you know, get in a better proportion because mostly they're worried about how they're going to come off and if we can slip if we can back away from that and think about how we're going to make the other person feel sometimes that does help

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:08:59
Absolutely. And you know, we want to remember as we our kids are not going to necessarily respond well when we say Do you notice you know like, Are you are you aware that I noticed thing when you're doing well are you be like, I'd asked you to do that. What are you doing that for? Like don't help me with that ruins the whole thing. So what we want to do is we want to just, you know, just casually say, you know, thanks for cooking dinner tonight. You've been home for three months and I really appreciate it because I'm working hard. It was very nice. I really, really value that. And that's it. You know, we don't want to get into a process around me noticing you. Instead, we just want to just offer it up and give it to them because we're going to be modeling for them how to offer it up. Yep. To other people. Yeah. So one of the things that's that's challenging for kids who are alternative learners is they often lack confidence. Yes, yes. Your ability to connect with others. They feel like they don't feel good about themselves, where they feel like they don't have enough to offer or they feel like they don't get it right or whatever the Poindexter is saying to them in their head. So what we want to offer them is as much as we can, is our love and our support. And so in order to do that, we want to be able to really focus on I observe. I notice I notice that when you're on your phone during the day, that by the time dinner comes, you know you're you're not necessarily in the best mood Do you notice that? What do you think is Do you think there might be a connection? How do you feel after you get off your phone being on it for two or three hours? And then because we want to ask those kinds of questions that foster metacognition or self awareness, right. So that so it feels like we're on their side, rather than we're judging them and we're telling them what they're doing

Lynn Davison 1:11:14
wrong. Because that's the Keystone skill that's going to help them move from the emotional childhood to the adulthood that we're helping them to get to.

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:11:24
Exactly exactly when you're going to assemble all parents. Just expect it and and the final thing that I want to leave you with is you will stumble yes school, we all will own it. Be accountable. Say wow, you know what I messed up. I'm sorry, I blew it. I know you told me for three years. 10 years or whatever, that you wish I didn't say X. I'm working on this. Sometimes I slip up. Yes.

Lynn Davison 1:11:53
Yes. I'm still working progress. Motherhood, you know, doesn't come like The Matrix. I didn't download mothering into into my you know, brain matrix we're we're learning as we go. And that's what we do. i You said you had something we learn we grow. There was a wonderful phrase you have in your that I that resonated with me about that way

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:12:17
but I think we learn, we grow and and we pivot and we I mean that Yeah, I think that's really what we have to do. And you know, we are works in progress. Our kids don't really want to hear about the work in progress. They just want us to leave them alone. So you know, you can say I this is this is a really annoying thing I do. I'm working on it. I may have to work on this till the day I die. I apologize for that. That's my that's my my path and that's life.

Lynn Davison 1:12:49
Yep, yeah. Wow, what a great way to wrap it up way too. And I just want to let everybody know that you will be sent a link to the to the replay and the C Lin C. Davidson speaking. Forward slash blog. is where you'll be able to see anytime you come back, that's where you're gonna be able to, it doesn't require an opt in, you can just go right to that page, and you'll be able to see this entire q&a with a transcript and the links at the top to any of the resources that we've mentioned here today.

Dr. Sharon Saline 1:13:29
Thank you learn and if you would send, maybe we can talk offline I I don't I'll email you with my phone number. But maybe we can talk offline because I'd love to have a link to this beautiful session on my Facebook and posted up on YouTube because it was really so fantastic to talk with you. You're very wise and insightful. And I just and so filled with admiration for the work that you're doing and thank you to everyone who joined us. I really appreciate your feedback and to Dr. Saline and yes

Lynn Davison 1:14:06

feedback and to Dr. Celine and yes, thank you for everybody who was able to come today and who is going to be watching this on the replay. Bye for now. Bye