Lynn Davison 00:00
I am so excited to introduce Haley Moss to you all, because she's remarkable, inspirational and insightful in all of the five books that she has published so far. So the first one she published in 2015 when she was a student, I'm assuming then, the second one she published when she got through university, right? And then the third one I love. This is the one I read in detail, is about the young adults independence handbook, and that was how she related how she moved from being a student to being an adult, and then she's been working not only as a lawyer, but also as an advocate for neurodiversity in organizations that are looking to figure out how to get better at employing neurodiverse people. And this is the book she published for that. And then recently, she just published talking the talk about autism, how to share and tell your story, which is, I gotta get this one because I need to understand this one better. So Haley, I'm so excited to welcome you to the art of adulting and when autism grows up. So let's just start out with me asking, What would change in an autistic young adults life, or their loved ones life, if they apply the lessons you're going to share with us today,
Haley Moss 01:29
I'm hoping for young people and their families is that people come away feeling empowered. I think, as an autistic young person, you're at a huge crossroads, essentially, that you have this kind of push and pull of you want to be as independent as possible. And we're told how independence is such a goal, and yet there's also a fear around it. There's a lot of unknown, and we're not really given much of a roadmap, other than go being told that independence is this thing you must achieve. And families also have this kind of change as well of Oh, my identity might change with being a parent, with having to advocate for you rather than alongside you. So I want everybody to feel empowered, because transitions are tough no matter who you are. And I think that's something that as I get older, I'm learning too, is that transitions are hard on everyone at any season or phase of life, whether you're neurodivergent or neurotypical for that matter. So I mostly just want people to feel empowered, to be able to advocate for themselves and to be better communicators with one another. Is that seems to be a more recurring theme in my work as time goes on, is, how do we get better at communicating about stuff that feels a little unnatural or that's just a very different human experience than somebody else that you're around. Is having
Lynn Davison 02:46
that difference? It has a huge impact. Yes, okay, all right. Well, you started out there a little bit with rejecting that neurotypical timeline language around independence, which I loved in your book, because you just put that one right out there. Tell me more about that.
Haley Moss 03:07
Yeah, I have this really big belief around this neurotypical idea of independence, because we're told that you have to follow this very perfect timeline for everything in life. And that's a lot of pressure for anyone, when you think about it, and the more time goes by, I realize that a lot of these neurotypical standards of independence, of where you should be at XYZ age, are very arbitrary, and kind of getting that out the window means that you can set things on your own terms. You don't have to have everything figured out by this perfect age and stage and independence looks very different for different people, that even when I think about me being an independent human being at this age, there's still plenty of things that I struggle with on a daily basis or don't really have the skills to do very well. But if I tell you that, you might think I need a lot more support, or I'm not capable of being independent. Meanwhile, I still run my business. I still have a home, a roof over my head. I travel a lot, I do all sorts of different things. I have a social life. I have a lot going on, and my inability to cook very well or to thrive necessarily aren't exactly how you're going to judge whether or not I can or should be on my own or be independent. And I like to think about these things as they don't happen on a perfect timeline. So when I think about something like driving, I'm in my 30s now, it's something I still struggle with. I got my license at 17 after much work and feeling late to the party there, and I've always just been very nervous about it. But that doesn't mean I'm never going to drive. Therefore I can't be independent, and I'm always going to be relying on other people, or ride share or whatever it may be. But I also have lived in big cities. I've taken public transportation. I walk a lot, I do all sorts of things, and I still am able to get around just. Fine, but I also know that it's okay if I master the art of driving in my 30s, and that doesn't make it less of an achievement. It doesn't mean that I haven't been able to have been independent for the rest of my adult life that I've already had. I think when we look at Independence more so is, how do we figure out what this person's goals are, and how do we support them in getting there? Is really a big shift, rather than you have to be on your own and figure out how to do all these adult tasks, and if you don't do them, well, you're going to be under some kind of scrutiny, or you failed at being an adult.
Lynn Davison 05:33
Yeah, here's the quote that I loved. We should be able to live where we want, with or without assistance, love who we want without penalty, apply for and hold jobs without fear of discrimination, and participate in our communities without barriers to access. I love that quote from that book.
Haley Moss 05:52
Thank you and I, and that is pretty much a summary of what I think about all the time, and a lot of it comes down to personal and kind of politics of disability, for that matter. So when we talk about where we want to live, who should be involved, what we want to do with our lives and how we participate, that really is something that's in that intersection. So I know sometimes in these conversations, things like guardianship show up, or we have different fears depending on where in the world you live or what jobs you're applying for that having a disability is going to be possibly held against you or misconstrued, or you're going to be judged in some way, shape or form. And when I think about community participation, I always tell people, you want them to self select out of things for the right reasons, rather than that they can't get in the building or it's not accessible. You want them to just say, I don't want to do this, rather than I can't do this.
Lynn Davison 06:43
I love that self. Select another point you had was independence as a strict dictionary definition of not needing assistance is harmful. I agree with you, but tell me why you think that
Haley Moss 06:56
because as human beings, we are naturally very interdependent as a community, that none of us are truly doing it by ourselves. Look at all the neurotypical people. So I know that it is a new year right now, and a lot of us are starting to get tax forms from last year. I know it's not a very fun thing to talk about, but I know that it's something that shows up, and a lot of us probably are not doing our taxes by ourselves. We probably are using some kind of service, or we have a tax professional guiding us through the process. That doesn't mean that we're not independent, right? That we rely on help for all sorts of different things. Maybe you have a gardener in your community or outside your house that helps take care of your lawn. Maybe you need help cleaning your house. Maybe you hire others or trade services and goods with other people, because you can't do it yourself. None of us are in this perfect little DIY universe of everything, where you're selling your own clothes, harvesting your own food, cooking your own food, doing all your taxes, having a job, starting your own business, not working with or for other people like none of us live in this perfect self sufficient, lone wolf universe. It's just fake. I don't know how else to say so whenever I think of independence, it's how do we have the skills to be able to set boundaries, stand up for ourselves, advocate for ourselves, and also be vulnerable enough to admit that I can't do it all by myself, that what do I need help with? And that is not something to be ashamed of.
Lynn Davison 08:23
Oh, so good, so good. And then you say here, at least it's unrealistic expectations, and it can even be burnout and meltdowns. You know, we don't want that. We want to get what we need without having to go through that exactly.
Haley Moss 08:39
And I feel like there's this thing that happens is, as people with disabilities, you get a lot more scrutiny about doing adult things that you're expected to do it perfectly, because you're so focused on traits and Id ideas, while neurotypical people don't have that same standard that they're held To, that I think about it a lot, if when it comes to being disorganized and having a messy room, because how many of us can't keep our room or our house clean for whatever the reason life happens, right? Or some of us are just naturally disorganized, messy people? And then it's then for me, I'll get told it's about your executive dysfunction, which at times is very true, but also you're held to this different standard. Of you got to work on your executive functioning, rather than, you know, some of us are just more organized than others, maybe set aside some more time to maybe work on that, that we're just held to very different standards based on labeling and how that interferes or interacts with neurodivergent traits. And I really think about that with behavior more so that long ago, I had a friend explain to me how it works with intellectual disabilities in particular, that we don't give people the benefit of the doubt that what they were talking about a kid with an intellectual disability who threw something at someone, and immediately they were writing about how he. Is exhibiting oppositional behavior, yes, and then if it was just a regular guy who didn't have an intellectual disability, we go, he probably just had a bad day and was frustrated and threw a thing against the wall. I'm like, why aren't we giving that same grace to that other kid? Instead, we're just making notes that might live in somebody's chart forever type thing. So I really do think when we have these expectations, we need to be as even keeled as possible and realize, you know, everybody needs help with things, everybody's independence journey, neurotypical, neurodivergent, disabled, non disabled, is very different.
Lynn Davison 10:33
Yes, we're part of a community. We all communicate, we all contribute. There are things each of us are good at and not so good at, an interdependence. That's the goal, in my mind, is exactly dependence, knowing where to ask for help and where to take it the way you want to take it,
Haley Moss 10:51
exactly and true independence is not only recognizing interdependence, but also having those skills to recognize that and have that communication of going, Okay, I do need things from within my community. I do need help with this, and that's not something to be ashamed of, that it's just part of being alive is that we are a naturally interdependent society. Even when we talk about being individuals and individualism and uniqueness, you could still have all these things coexist, that you can still very much be your own person who is empowered, who sets boundaries, who advocates for yourself, while also still communicating and participating in this give and take with a broader community of people.
Lynn Davison 11:32
I love how simply you put it, it makes it so clear, I love it. Well, that's why I loved your book. So you know, we don't have to have all the answers we can ask for help, and that's actually a strength,
Haley Moss 11:45
yeah, and it took me a while to figure that one out, because I used to be so ashamed to ask for help, because I thought that asking for help was a sign of weakness. And it turns out, it's not something to be ashamed of or nor is it weak. I have felt very embarrassed asking for help with basic life skills before, whether it was how to boil a pasta or even just how to do something. And I was not 18 years old when I asked that. I was in my 20s, and I was sufficiently embarrassed, but also my friend at the time, who I was talking about this was like, great. Okay, we're just going to show you how to do it. No problem. Great. You're going to learn something new. It's going to be fun. We'll practice. And I just was so taken aback by something so simple. Instead of just being embarrassed about and being questioned of, how do you not know how to do that is okay, so what? Well, we'll work on it, not an issue. And there are plenty of things I have helped my friends with. I've been there the listening ear in different crises. I have been the voice of reason for other advice. I have been able to give different things and contribute different things to those friendships and relationships that have nothing to do with my ability to boil pasta, for instance, for lack of a better description,
Lynn Davison 12:53
thank goodness. Right, right. There's so many things. There are more things that we don't know than we do know exactly.
Haley Moss 13:01
And that's kind of a humbling exercise, I think, for a lot of people to realize I don't know everything, and it is okay that I don't know everything. I don't have to have all the answers. I don't need to know all the answers. I feel a lot more confident about that coming from law school, where you do meet people who think they know everything, and quickly when they don't, because when you enter, you think you really know I was guilty of this too. So you come in thinking you know everything, that you're so smart, that you're so wise, and then you realize I don't know anything, whether it was about the law or just other things in general, in life and come and having that humility of you know I don't know everything. There's no way that I could, and I probably know closer to nothing than I do. Everything really does make a difference. It helps you be more open minded as a human as well. I think when you're like, I don't know everything, I still have a lot to learn, and I have learned way more in my adult life than I have in school, and that's awesome.
Lynn Davison 13:56
Yeah, that's the idea, because it's more of what you want to know. You know it's not a sign for weakness, but a sign of self awareness and strength. Here I just, I'm pulling, I pulled all these quotes from the book, from your book, so I just want to make sure that that's so it's okay to have a village of people to help me to be able to function and run my life. Boy, that acceptance, that's not easy, right? So you have first have to empathize with yourself by saying, Hey, I know you're scared, but let's try this, right? I know this is uncomfortable. Well, let's do it anyway. And then in the long run, you realize, oh, I have a village
Haley Moss 14:31
that's kind of cool. It really is, and everybody's village looks very different. And also, just keeping in mind what an individual person's goals are. So I know we talk a lot about young people who might not want to move out, or they're scared, or they have a roommate and they don't want a roommate anymore, or whatever it may be, is it's our goal to not be like they can't live alone, or they shouldn't live alone more. So if they do want to be on their own, how do we put the right support in place that they're not set up to fail? Hmm, that's always how I like to look at things. Is, how do we take those goals seriously? Instead of say, You can't do this or it's going to be so difficult that it's not worth it, I would rather know it's not for me. Then figure out that it's you know. I'll never know. I'd rather know than I'd rather know and fail than never know.
Lynn Davison 15:23
That's Oh, that's a mantra I'd rather know and fail than never know. I like that. I like that. You had a remarkable mom. She set you up for total acceptance and, you know, unconditional love from the time that you were nine, apparently, right. Tell me
Haley Moss 15:43
that the way that my parents explained that I was autistic to me really was that huge game changer. And I like to tell this story, mostly because right now, everybody is really kind of hyped up on language and that you have to say the right thing to be a great ally, parent supporter, and truthfully, you don't. I spend a lot of time teaching language around neurodiversity. I think language is an extremely powerful tool, but you can also have all the right language and not be a great ally and supporter at the same time. So I would rather you say the wrong thing in your actions or speaking the loudest. And I say this especially because sometimes, and especially when I grew up, we didn't have the language we have now, and my parents set me up for success with that, with explaining that not that something was wrong with me, but that something was different, and that different was neither better nor worse. And at the time, I was really into the Harry Potter series, so having it likened to something that I was interested in about being different made me feel a lot more confident. And the more that I look back on it, I'm going, Wow, this was really revolutionary for the time. Maybe even still, I don't have children. I don't know what the little ones are going through in 2026 I don't know how we're that far along. But when I was a kid, I really didn't think, oh my gosh, something's wrong with me. I'm broken, I'm I want to be normal. I had that feeling of, I wish I were neurotypical, because, wow, things would be so much easier socially as a teenager, because I think a lot of teenagers just want to fit in. They want to make friends, they want to connect with their peers, they want that social growth. I think that was probably a more typical experience than I would like to admit. I can't just say that. I just sat there and said, I'm just going to let my freak flag fly. I am awesome the way I am my whole life, because that is a self acceptance journey. Is that I wouldn't want a different brain, but I was like, I would be so much happier if some of this was easier. And I think that's a very rational take the older that I get, but at the time, you're just like, I just want to be like everybody else, because I just want to have friends like every have friends like everybody else. I want to do all these normal teenagery things, but I don't regret I don't have any. I don't wish things were different. I think it's more of okay, and realizing that difference was more of a neutral, that can very much be a positive, has been big. So I like to look at it as a healthy acceptance that I feel very disability neutral for the most part. I am very proud to have a disability. I'm very proud to be autistic, but I look at it as a neutral in my life. I don't know any different. I can't tell you for sure what would be different about me had I been born neurotypical. I also have a healthy acceptance of you know what? This is the hand in life I've been dealt, and I'm going to make the most of it. I don't think of it really as a superpower, because I don't know any different. I I like to keep that neutrality for me, because I don't want to have people have inflated expectations about who I am and what I stand for based on positive stereotyping. And I also don't think the negative stereotypes are true either for the most part, where people will automatically discount what you can and can't do. So for me, kind of having that difference neither better nor worse. It's just different as more of a framework for neutrality. But there's still plenty that could be extraordinary and awesome about it. It's not bad, but it's also what
Lynn Davison 19:03
you make of it. So good, so good. What's this next one? Internalized ableism? Let's talk about that, because I definitely see that happen in my family, where Yeah, where it's yeah, it's sometimes soul crushing.
Haley Moss 19:22
It really is, and it's one of those things I still don't quite have the roadmap to how to get out of, because I still deal with it sometimes. So especially if you're dealing with neurodivergent people who are heavily masking and trying to appear more neurotypical and really trying to do all of that stuff, it can be really complicated, and sometimes you have this internalized ableism that shows up and that you want to be as normal as possible, or maybe you're just thinking, I don't deserve the accommodations. It shows up in a lot of very sneaky ways. So one way that I was described that it showed up in my adult life. Was going to Disney parks, and I love Disney, and with Disney's accessibility services, there were years that would happen that I'd be like, I can't ask for this, even though waiting in the lines was so difficult for me because of all the sensory input and the people and the screaming kids, that I would have a meltdown or get very overwhelmed, and I would think, you have to brave it out, because there's a child who needs this, and you can't take that away from a child. And then the older I got, I was like, You know what? I'm not taking it away. Am I just embarrassed about this? Am I embarrassed to go through the process of asking for accommodations and maybe not being believed? And there's enough access to go around that these big theme parks have plenty of ways and plenty of resources to make sure that everybody gets their chance and everybody gets to experience the magic. So the more time that goes on, I'm like, You know what? If I need to advocate for myself, I can't be ashamed of it. Or the worst thing that can happen is somebody's going to say no, but it is really complicated when you have this affecting your self esteem in some way, shape or form, whether that you are heavily masking you want to be as perceived as normally as possible, which is very valid, because you want to be treated with respect. And it shows how much work there is on everybody else around you to be more understanding, accepting and better educated and informed, more so than you contorting yourself into different human pretzel shapes to get social capital and acceptance and respect like anybody else. And then, of course, it's going to make you feel like you can't
Lynn Davison 21:31
really be yourself. Love your language, contorting yourself in human pretzels shapes.
Haley Moss 21:36
That's how I feel like it is. You're just like constantly shape shifting. I love that. And I used to say it was like being a chameleon.
Lynn Davison 21:43
I love how you reminded me of the poem you get proud by practicing too that that's what it's you your whole self, internalized ableism journey you've you kind of described how it went over time that you practiced it, but over time
Haley Moss 22:00
that poem still makes me cry. Yeah, that I every time I read it, when I feel like I need a reminder, whether, whatever it is, that if I have that kind of self doubt, that shame, or anything kind of internalized against any of my different identities, and it's like you get proud by practicing like you actually have to just be yourself out loud
Lynn Davison 22:18
and next to your whole the last book that you wrote was all about that, telling your story,
Haley Moss 22:23
yeah, how do you advocate for yourself? How do you disclose how do you bring this up, especially if you're late diagnosed, or you don't want to talk about it at work, or you want to advocate for yourself on a broader scale, like, how do you have those conversations? And as even for family members, how do they have those conversations? How do you talk to your family about autism? How do you talk to siblings? How do you talk to your young person who doesn't know that about themselves yet is having all these tough conversations, and I realized it was a tough conversation I'd get asked about over and over and over from all different facets of I don't know how to tell my workplace, but I know I need accommodations to my eight year old is on the spectrum, but I haven't said anything to them yet. How do I do that? Like or I am starting to date, and I don't know how to talk about it with my boyfriend, I've had people say stuff like that to me, and it's like, Okay, I am going to do my best to unpack as many of these as I can, because it is something I've had to do in every facet of my life, and it can be exhausting, and your strategy for how you're going to advocate for yourself to a manager at work is not going to be the same strategy you're using with your family. That I think it's a lot more vulnerable having these in your personal life than professional life and having those more vulnerable conversations, rather than going in there in my brain with my litigator advocacy face is very different than going in there with my Hi, I am a person. You know me. You love me, you care about me, and I want you to understand this about me.
Lynn Davison 23:54
Oh, just Yes. So we have to nuance. It's like, there's lots of shades,
Haley Moss 23:58
there's a lot of nuance, yes conversations, and it's really tough to unpack in like, a small, bite sized format, which is why it needed
Lynn Davison 24:06
a book. I can't wait to read that one. Sorry, I haven't read it yet.
Haley Moss 24:10
Don't worry. I for me. So my fun fact about that one is that one's my pride and joy at the moment, because I got to narrate the audio book. And I've never gotten to do an audio book before. So if you are an audiobooks person, you get to listen
Speaker 2 24:21
to me talk, oh, that's even better. Yes, yes. And it was a really special
Haley Moss 24:25
experience that made it a lot more fun to get to kind of guide people in my own voice, yes.
Lynn Davison 24:30
And emphasize just where you want it emphasized. I just, I just did my audiobook, and it's, yeah, I love doing it. I love doing this. Like, wow, this makes sense once I got through it, huh? Yeah, that's not too bad, right? So you talked about all that comes. You know that self esteem and confidence come from within, and also owning all of us is really what matters,
Haley Moss 24:56
yeah, and the more time that goes by, the more I realize you have to own every. Everything, The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, the in between, the things you feel kind of neutral about, the things you weren't quite sure how you feel about, that little questioning voice in your head. I think about this, for people who are self diagnosed, maybe they discovered something new about themselves. Maybe it's some other piece of their life that, yeah, it takes time, and we have so many different attitudes about being different, whatever that difference may be that are reinforced to us from the world around us, that we don't often just get that time or really go on that journey to sit with ourselves and realize, you know, this is part of who I am. It doesn't mean something's wrong with me. I just need to learn to embrace it or to feel comfortable with it. It doesn't mean I have to shout it from the rooftop, but it means that I want to feel more at ease and at home with myself
Lynn Davison 25:49
absolutely because the more comfortable we are, the less afraid we are, and So the more willing we are to experiment. Yeah. Okay. So this autistic burnout concept, what do you think about that this when you were in it, and I'm just assuming you've been in it, I have self out. Did you get yourself out?
Haley Moss 26:17
I feel like getting out of an autistic burnout is a lot of rest, a lot of recharging and reconnecting with the things that make you excited again. And something that I spend a lot more time talking about now is autistic joy. So a lot of the times we talk about all these things that are so difficult for us, and I know that it's a focus. We want to make people's lives better. We want to ease the challenges. We want to ease the difficulties. And something I think you've probably even noticed from talking to me, I'm not sitting here harping on all the things that make my life difficult, that, yes, I can sit here lamenting my lack of cooking and driving skills and different social mishaps and all sorts of stuff. I can sit here all day long. Being like this is hard and it is. I'm not going to sugarcoat it in that way, but it also doesn't rule my life, and there's so much joy in the journey. There's so many things I'm passionate about, and my overall quality of life is pretty fantastic. I have a sense of purpose. I have a ton of hobbies. I have friends. I have all sorts of great stuff. And when I am burned out, I don't want to talk to anybody, I want to sit in my little, cozy nest, cocoon of blankets, and sit on the couch and play video games, because that makes me happy and not feeling ashamed for wanting to sit there and play video games, because I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I could be doing something more productive. Or even when I was a kid, the girls didn't play video games, and that was something that the boys did, like, No, I enjoyed it. And it's funnier, because the older I got, the more connected I got with the things that I enjoyed, regardless of what expectations we had around it, which I think has been kind of a fun homecoming to myself, in a way, I was like, Oh, I loved this thing when I was seven, and now I think it's cool again, because now I can just truly indulge in it. I have my own money, so I don't have to worry about, oh, is it something that I have to ask people to let me indulge in, or they're going to have whatever judgment perhaps about it, of, you know, maybe you should try something else, or trying to diversify, because I know we try to do that with kids. We want them to experience and explore all sorts of different things, or they or you think we're going to grow out of it when we hit a certain age. So even a couple of years ago, I got back into Pokemon card collecting, and it makes me super excited. I wish I had kept everything from when I was a little kid, I truly do, but it brings me so much joy to kind of reconnect. And I think a lot of that as an autistic person is really big. It's radical in its own way, but it's also that stuff that has gotten me out of those darker feelings and that burnout of like, Wow, there's so much that makes me who I am and that I genuinely enjoy, and I want to have the energy to enjoy it so I can go back to everything else as well. Rest it. Rest in the things that make me happy I think are the best ways out. And don't be afraid to seek support if you need it, whether it's through a professional or just people you trust,
Lynn Davison 29:04
yeah, who love you, yes, yes. So it may be an option, you know, to get some outside help. And, you know, just you might need somebody that can just look at things in a neutral ish way. None of us, yeah, really neutral, but, you know, in a neutral ish way, yeah, or
Haley Moss 29:23
someone who does not necessarily sit there and judge, I think a non judgmental way more so than a neutral is probably the best way to look at it is, how do we get someone who's not going to judge us like I think that's why I always tell people therapy and mental health counseling is awesome, is because it's someone who's kind of there as a third party, yeah, who is obviously there for your well being. They'll call you out, but they'll also call you in, or they'll validate you as needed. But it's not like they're going to go run off to somebody else and spill all your secrets, either, that you just need to find somebody in this world you feel safe with and that understands, I think that psychological safety is a really big thing. I. Know that it gets thrown around a lot as kind of this buzzword phrase, and I really don't like when mental health gets kind of buzz worded like that, but it's, it's a serious thing that having someone you feel safe with to talk about things, or to talk through things and maybe learn something that's huge, and that goes for anybody really, I do think it's harder when you're neurodivergent to find somebody who gets that and understands that, how that interacts with what you're experiencing. So the way that a neurotypical person might feel anxious or overwhelmed or depressed might look very different than an autistic person in burnout or an autistic person who is anxious, overwhelmed or depressed.
Lynn Davison 30:39
Good to know all of that too. So you can help them, help each other sort it out, figure out what's going on. Yeah, what to do next, what to try next. And there's no shame in that.
Haley Moss 30:50
No, I still come from a belief that everybody can benefit from talking to somebody. I was a psychology major in college. That is a fun fact. And I remember walking out of college, thinking, pretty much anybody can benefit from talking to a professional no matter
Lynn Davison 31:05
who you are. I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree for a season
Haley Moss 31:09
or for the rest of your life, however long it may be. I'm sure it benefits everybody at some point
Lynn Davison 31:14
in your life. Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. Well, then the rest of the book, you did a great job of hitting on the the areas of life, self care, healthy, socializing your own domain, financially supporting and making your mark, the kinds of mark that you want to make in the book, just really outlined all kinds of wonderful options for autistic young adults to consider which one's going to work for
Haley Moss 31:38
them, and what in each place Can you work on? And I remember, for me, I was so excited when I was writing this, because there were things I just didn't know a lot about. Wow. How can I ask these questions? So I know when I was thinking about the health section, and I am very honest, I went on a more serious health journey in the past year, because I realized that some of my habits were not great, and even starting to do things like schedule those yearly doctor's appointments. Nobody wants to do it. It's not fun, but when you are at the age that you should be doing it, and you have health coverage, you have access to care, whatever it may be, you should probably be doing that and get that out of your system. And it's a good thing that now I do wish looking back, though, there are things that now I know that I'm older to start looking for that I would love to help break down. So for instance, even looking at your lab results, I wish people had told me what any of that stuff means, because they just assume you know, and most of us don't that. And getting things explained to you in plain language is a really tough accommodation sometimes to get from providers. But also my favorite thing when I was doing healthy habits was the fact that I am a selective eater. For the most part. I am not someone who has always had great eating habits my whole life. I'm very honest about that, and I got to talk to somebody who was a professional about trying new things and how to kind of diversify and make better decisions, because that's something that's hard for so many autistic people, and it was really fascinating for me to realize, okay, I'm going in here thinking, this is what I want people to know, but I don't have all the answers either. So who can I talk to that might know something that I don't, that I can share with others.
Speaker 2 33:17
I love that that
Lynn Davison 33:20
just curiosity is driving you, and you're determined to figure it out.
Haley Moss 33:26
That's actually a fun skill that I feel like I learned from journalism. So I was a high school journalist, and then I did some more journalism and write and through when you write nonfiction in this kind of self help ish genre, it is journalism at its finest. It's really just service journalism, and what you're doing is you have to know where your own limits are when it's something personal to you, and figure out who is an expert. And it was the same thing when I was in law practice. Is when you had something complicated happen to somebody, you needed to find an expert. And that's how you got expert witnesses. That's why when you see different like auto injury trials. Sometimes you see an engineer breaking down the design of the car and how that person might have gotten that injury. Or you see a bunch of different doctors talking about something. Sometimes you can't just go, Oh, you got hurt. My shoulder hurts. You need someone who goes, well, here's what happened to your shoulder, and this is likely why it happened that. So then we can prevent it in the future, or that we can make sure that somebody is made whole somehow, that all of these different skills kind of come together. And I think that's what's really interesting to me, is that there's so many professional skills and life skills that are compatible with each other. So even being a high school journalist taught me how to be curious about certain things, and it was a place that one of my other friends, who was an autistic journalist, said that curiosity was rewarded, that you could be an autistic person asking an incessant amount of questions, and instead of being told to shut up, your curiosity would eventually be rewarded, or somebody would say something that a, they shouldn't or B, that's extremely insightful and helpful.
Lynn Davison 34:58
I love that, and then you made the transition. Transition into advocacy work. Tell me about how that experiment went. How did that go? How'd you do that?
Haley Moss 35:07
I don't think of advocacy as an experiment. I think of advocacy is kind of a natural thing that happens for a lot of us is I think so many people want to make their journeys public. They want to help others, and they want to feel a sense of community and less alone. I think that's why a lot of people get into advocacy on a greater scale. But I do think being able to advocate for yourself is such a valuable skill set that isn't always taught, and it isn't always taught well, that sometimes it's assumed that a parent will do it for you, or another adult will do it for you your whole life, and especially with younger kids, we see it a lot that think of sometimes who goes to an IEP meeting, sometimes the student isn't in the room. And it's something that if they are old enough and able to understand they should be there, it's about them, that maybe they have different goals than the adults in the room do, and it's important we listen, that there's so many ways we get so that's why, when we talk about families in particular, I always say, you want to advocate with the person, not for the person. Yeah, that it's a partnership. It's a true partnership, even though it's not always an even partnership, especially when you have younger kids, because there's only so much advocacy you can do when you're little. I don't put an age on that because, you know, everybody's maturity level understanding situation is different, but getting to that point of a healthy partnership that you could eventually be like, Okay, you're an adult, you take the lead. We're here to support you and be more on the bench than you're the you're the one doing all the work in the heavy lifting. I think that's a really big thing. And also, how do we advocate for ourselves? How do we do these very adult feeling things and make our voices heard? And there's so many ways you can make your voice heard, whether it's joining a group or support group, whether it's advocating for yourself at work or even just registering to vote that there are so many ways we can advocate for ourselves and use our voices for change, for good or just to make things better in our own lives.
Lynn Davison 37:11
Oh, for sure, for sure. Well, let me wrap this up in a self serving way. Be very upfront about that, because this peace process is the way that I work out all my problems, and I advocate that my people do as well. So I mean, we want to make peaceful progress together. That's the whole idea. So I think what you're saying is, let's pause the unrealistic expectations. Let's get real about the fact that we're interdependent. All of us are, and we're gonna have strengths and weaknesses no matter where we go, and to empathize with the reality of being autistic that you know this is there's some things that make it harder, but there are also things that make it more joyful, right? I mean, absolutely I love my perseverative ways. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't perseverating on this particular transit. You know this exactly.
Haley Moss 38:06
And then there's so there is so much joy, and there's so much that I think that I wish neurotypical people experienced, because they don't know, like, that full body joy that I get, like, when I'm really excited about something, I can't stop moving. My hands will flap, I will have this full body sensation I can't control, and I envy that when neurotypical people, like, perform that, like, big smile and that's it, I'm like, like, I don't envy that. Like, I feel sorry for you, if that's your idea of happiness. Is like, and I'm just like, like, rocking out, having fun my life. Like, no, like, why would I just want that one moment? I want it to feel it, yeah, yeah. I love it.
Lynn Davison 38:43
I love it. So just noticing ours and the other person's, you know, reaction, it's kind of a two way street. The whole process is a two way street. We pause unrealistic expectations of ourselves, and we also pause unrealistic expectations of others, because unless you really want to understand what's going on with somebody that's autistic. Most people need an education.
Haley Moss 39:05
Yeah, most people, none of us, and none of us are mind readers.
Lynn Davison 39:08
No, none of us are. I
Haley Moss 39:10
can't read your mind. You can't read mine. And we sometimes try to guess what we think the other person needs or wants. And we can be right, or we can be horribly wrong,
Lynn Davison 39:18
yeah, yeah. And we, that's where we need to get curious, right? And see if we can't figure it out. And then we, you know, want to align, at the form of independence or interdependence with our own values. What's important to us first, right? It sounded like you did a really good job with that. You just decided what mattered most to you, and you went after that, and you figured out, oh, in my 30s, I can figure out how to drive, I can figure out how to buy a house. I can figure out all that stuff, right? Yeah, you didn't have to do it all at once. You did what, what was most important
Haley Moss 39:52
first, yeah. And even it was funny, because when I was younger, what my true independence goals were as a younger person versus what my parents. Were expecting from me were not always the same. Is that for me, what? And I'm very, very upfront about, one of my primary goals earlier on was financial independence. I didn't want them to feel that they had to support me or worry about me, that I'd be able to manage my own affairs, that I would always be able to make things happen and not be worried or reliant on them, because they have done so much for me. I didn't want anyone to feel that I was a burden in some way. Nor did I want to feel like I was relying on other people making decisions for me. And I thought, Okay, if that's the number one form of independence that I can get, then great. And then they'd be like, we just want you to be happy, or we just want you to feel the sense of purpose, or it's really important that you, whatever it may be, that depending on the phase of life, that it wasn't that was not what anyone expected to be my number one. And I thought that was the most logical number one, because then you can go from there. And I also thought about it, okay, if there is a life skill that I'm struggling with, if I have financial independence, I can always get help to do something that is how the world, at least in the US, works, that if I can't keep things organized, I can always hire help to stay organized with something. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, either. We all end
Lynn Davison 41:12
up with something love to help other people get organized. Plenty of people, yeah. And then we collaborate together with, you know, your idea, my idea, your idea, my idea, and then we pick the one that works best, that we can see ourselves do, right? And that's where we experiment, so that our adulthood is built on what we can see ourselves doing and what we're confident that we can get done. And we just keep going over and over again,
Haley Moss 41:41
yes, and it's dynamic, yeah. Like, what we need at certain points in our lives are very different, that what I needed 10 years ago wasn't what I need now. And even looking at for me, even going back in like, five year increments, I'm like, wow, I grew a lot. I learned a lot of different emotional regulation, or I learned how to set boundaries, or I learned some other adult skill. Or I learned how to boil pasta, for instance, or whatever it may be. And I could go, wow, I really did it.
Speaker 2 42:11
And team learned how to run your own business.
Haley Moss 42:13
My goodness, I still can't believe I figured that one out. Sometimes I can't believe I even made it through law school, because I'm like, wow, I had a lot of grit, I had a lot of perseverance at that point in my life that I was like, I need to do this. I can do this. Because looking back, if I had to do it today, I don't know if I would be able to with different pressures and different expectations, and I wouldn't be used to being in school, and it would be a different routine change, and it would be a lot more overwhelming of a transition than going straight from college. So I think it's also realizing what you need at a specific point in your life as well.
Lynn Davison 42:45
That's a good point. Yeah, that it changes. Our needs change over time. Yeah, certain things are going to be more important at certain times than at others. Wow, wow. Well, listen, I want to thank you for being with me today, for writing all those books and for all the advocacy work that you do, I your clear, compassionate framing of interdependence, especially the emphasis on the self definition the sustainability of it, has been incredibly meaningful to me, and I'm sure that as I share this with my families, they're going to be Oh, yeah, that's a good point. We're all interdependent. Your voice just keeps help shifting that conversations from urgency and fixing to understanding and dignity. And I'm just so grateful for all that you've
Haley Moss 43:37
contributed. Thank you so much.
Lynn Davison 43:40
Yeah, well, thank thank you again, and I hope we stay in touch
Haley Moss
Absolutely, okay. Thank you
Lynn Davison
Bye, for now,
Haley Moss 43:49
until next time bye.
